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Not Personality But Process

by: David Dayen

Wed Feb 18, 2009 at 13:07:29 PM PST


I have to wholeheartedly agree with Robert's take on how the Yacht Party putsch last night does nothing but highlight the need for fundamental reform and a return to democracy in California.  He did an admirable job going over the history and the menu of options, but I want to make the more emotional argument for a return to majority rule.  Scott Lemieux at Lawyers, Guns and Money did the best and most concise job of explaining why, despite the essential truth of the Republican Zombie Death Cult, it's the process-based enabling that it the original sin.

Although Krugman is of course right to blame a "fanatical, irrational minority" for the current crisis in California, it can't be emphasized enough that what really matters is the incredibly stupid institutional rules that empower this minority: namely, the idiotic super-majority for tax increases and an initiative system that both created that supermajority requirement and provides incentives to vote for every tax cut while mandating certain kinds of spending because the issues are isolated. Fortunately, the federal level (while it has too many veto points) is not quite at this level yet, and at least the stupid filibuster rule doesn't apply to budgets.

It's very easy to get people excited and motivated about a PERSON.  Not so much about a process.  And yet, as we all know, without the process, the villains in this melodrama would be sidelined.  And I believe that is a fact which serves both parties.

People on the left often obsess over whether the electorate can figure out who to blame in these crises.  The 2/3 requirement is a powerful enabler for that confusion.  Because the elected representatives of the majority party are not allowed to impose their will on how the state is to be run, they cannot be held to account.  Because the elected representatives of the minority party are in the minority party, they cannot be held to account.  Therefore we have a political cycle that mirrors the economic cycle that results from these bad policies.  The powerful stay powerful, the voiceless stay voiceless, people lose faith in the process, leading to more entrenched power and more voiceless, and so on.

Greg Lucas at California's Capitol makes the moral case for a majority-vote budget along these lines, that it is the only way for true accountability in the system.

If the huckstering of the President's Day Weekend demonstrated anything at all, it's that the majority party should be able to pass the budget it considers best for California.

If its awful the governor, should he or she be of a different political party, can slice-and-dice it through the miracle of the veto process.

Should the governor be of the same political party and warmly endorse the spending plan well he or she can be thrown out by voters.

And, if the non-partisan commission created by Proposition 11 last November to draw new legislative boundaries does its job it will be possible to throw out members of the party that passed the budget as well.

I don't agree about the panacea of redistricting - the available data shows virtually no link between gerrymandering and political polarization - but on balance Lucas is right.  It's not a marketplace of ideas unless citizens can buy one idea or the other and make their decision based on the evidence.  Democracies work when ideas are allowed to stand strong or wither on the strength of results.  We do not have that here in California.

As to my point that this serves both parties?  Greg Lucas:

Just to sweeten the majority-vote budget pot a little, there's a fairly hefty number of folks who work both in and around the Capitol who assert that whichever team wins the power to run roughshod over the minority party will be so scared of exclusive blame for any badness in the budget being exclusively their fault that they won't do anything real drastic.

This is what they are scared of CURRENTLY.  There are lots of checks and balances in political systems.  There is no need for an artificial veto.  Democrats will still be timid to stick their necks out (they're politicians), but at least they would have no excuses.

Arnold Schwarzenegger is irrelevant and a failure. Democrats are spineless jellyfish.  The Yacht Party is a collection of flat-earthers bent on destruction.  All well and good.  Yet all of these discrete groups are enabled by a political system that does violent disservice to the people of the state and the concept of democracy.  We must have a return to majority rule.  For the sake of accountability.

David Dayen :: Not Personality But Process
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Begging your pardon (4.00 / 1)
if this has been discussed before but I'm new here and haven't had time to read too far back yet.

How much could we save if we just eliminated the entire California State Senate?  Just dumped every fat bastard up there to the curb along with their staffs, their per diem, their car allowances , their travel allowances...

I am firmly convinced... now more than ever... that this state does not need a two house legislature.  We have our Assemble that supposedly represents us so just who the hell does the seante represent?  I mean in theory of course... the public reason we get for having them in the first place.

We all know who they actually represent.


unicameral (0.00 / 0)
I would have no problem with this - other than the Senate confirming judges and cabinet officials, there is largely no difference, and their districts are bigger than Congressional districts which makes grassroots campaigning almost impossible.

Thanks for bringing it up, you should write a diary about it!


[ Parent ]
Great idea (5.00 / 1)
A unicameral is a great idea.  As a starting point, I would make it a unicameral of 120 members based on 80 assembly seats plus 40 senate seats.

Think of the advantages:

- government closer to the people since each elected member would represent fewer voters, making it more responsive to the people, less under the influence of lobbyists, and more liberal overall

- simpler to enact legislation since a bill would only have to pass once

- a way to mitigate (if not eliminate) Prop 11 since many small districts are a lot harder to gerrymander than fewer large ones

 -- or eliminate Prop 11 altogether since the "Assembly" and "State Senate" would no longer exist as such

- an opportunity to get rid of term limits, again because the "Assembly" and "State Senate" would no longer exist as such.  


[ Parent ]
Unicameral with 240 seats (0.00 / 0)

I see your argument, and double it.

I had a chance to meet with members of Sweden's legislature, and their multi-party system with fewer voters per legislator produced a far better result.

No Real Housewives, but plenty of action at Orange County Progressive.

Come for the politics. Stay for dessert.


[ Parent ]
Agreed (6.00 / 2)
In the aftermath of Reynolds v. Sims the rationale for a State Senate no longer exists.

Prior to 1965 the State Senate was districted by county lines. Each district had a minimum of one county and a maximum of three, regardless of population. This led to the situation in 1965 of LA County, population 3 million, having...one Senator; and Alpine, Mono and Inyo Counties, population 100,000, having...one Senator.

Reynolds v. Sims held that such districts were unconstitutional, and mandated all state legislative districts be drawn to have equal population.

Personally I think we should abolish the Senate and double or triple the size of the Assembly.

But even that won't produce change unless it's accompanied with elimination of the 2/3 rule.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave


[ Parent ]
the only use i can see for the senate (0.00 / 0)
would be as a proportional representation hedge against assembly gerrymandering, and bring more small party political voices into the debate.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

[ Parent ]
Back to the Future: Prop. 56 (0.00 / 0)
We have to use the initiative system one more time.  It's time to try again with Proposition 56.  

Now.  

It's time to kill the supermajority.  Other parts of our political system can send citizens to kill and be killed in war on the results of a simple majority vote---but you need better than two-thirds tally to raise a vehicle fee??  

And when did Grover Norquist become a resident of California, are his kids going to our schools? Why do we have legislators taking Grover's no-tax blood-oath?  Just why do the Repubs place their true loyalty, to some out-of-state zealot who doesn't have to live with the consequences?

We need to get "Son of Prop.56" on the ballot.


"Now" is the right word (0.00 / 0)
I'm gonna keep saying this until I start turning blue in the face (I already Bleed Blue).

People have finally started paying attention to the mess in Sacramento.  National media has started to cover it.  Even local news is probably giving this more and more quality coverage.  And newspaper editorial boards have finally started to come to the correct conclusions: the GOP has gone completely mad, and the 2/3 rule is unworkable.

Folks, IT WILL NOT LAST.  And it's very unlikely to be the case in another year when the state Democratic Party gets off its collective ass and starts to think about ballot initiative.

The top-down, consultant driven initiative campaigns of the recent past have been dismal failures.  Trying to get the need for complex reforms across to the public in two months using 30-second ads is not only enormously expensive in California, it is also catastrophically ineffective.  The Other Side, with extreme radical right billionaires donating fabulous amounts of money, is just better at it.  Except for Democratic Party and liberal leaning political consultants, who get rich from this, there is not benefit to this and no profit in it.

There is simply no substitute for organizing at the grassroots, and using modern grassroots and netroots organizing techniques.  30 second ads do not persuade very well, particularly if you aren't willing to peddle lies, hatred and ugly emotions in them, as the GOP and corporate lobbies do.  But people will listen to a friend, a relative, or a neighbor.  Someone they know and trust.

That takes time, and you cannot do this in two months, as our political consultants try to sell us.  You really can't do it in six without incredible effort.  But between now and June 2010, we can do, and we can do it massively.

Don't worry about the exact wording.  Any of two or three current proposals are already prepared, and are good enough.  People are paying attention now.  People are angry now.  And the national media and major newspapers in California are paying attention now.

Very likely, none of this will be as favorable in another year.

Get initiative petitions printed, and get them out to people now.  Put up social networking based websites now.  Start doing meet ups now.

Now.  And not after things cool down.


[ Parent ]
Don't forget the "Fourth Branch of Government" (0.00 / 0)
"Spineless Jellyfish" is NOT a useful way to frame our allies. I see them as good people who aren't speaking up because there's a knife being held to their back.

Conservatives win from a minority position because they typically dominate the arena of public opinion... the "Fourth Branch" - which has a powerful influence on the legislative branch.

This is a democracy. We want our elected reps to be looking over their shoulders and thinking about their next election. But that gives advantage to those who own the means to publish, broadcast and preach from the pulpit.

Conservatives win because they can fit their issues into simple evocative containers - and no amount of liberal "analysis" can dislodge those from the voter's mind.

They also own most of the "bullhorns".

Prop-13 passed because one image dominated the contest: Elderly widows being thrown out of their homes because they couldn't pay their ever-increasing property taxes with their fixed income. After an episode of inflation and gasoline shortages, everyone felt like an elderly widow.

Conservative bias in the media creates an illusion of dominance that keeps ordinary people from speaking too critically of conservative policy. Outright bullying by right-wing talk radio makes people reluctant to "talk politics" with their neighbors and co-workers. That leaves us to form our opinions from... yeah, the media.

Our elected representatives are tuned into this, and temper their rhetoric accordingly.

The more we attack conservative dogma "from the bottom up", the more they will join us "from the top down."

Or else we're all "spineless jellyfish".


There seems 2 be a bit of a mob rules, 50+1 mentality here (0.00 / 0)
The reason for a state senate is the same as our nations, checks and balances.  Republics protect the minorities interests.

A third of Californians are registered Republicans and with the surge in independent registrations you cannot assume the other 66% of the state are all fundamentally to the left.

Fact is the 2/3 rule is the law of the land and if direct democracy is your goal do you really think 50+1 of the population supports these regressive tax measures?


Californians support tax increases (0.00 / 0)
It's the 2/3 rule that makes it look like we don't.

Voters in San José, Los Angeles County, and Sonoma-Marin all voted to increase sales taxes to pay for passenger rail last November. They all did so by greater than 2/3 majorities.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave


[ Parent ]
And congratulaions to those constituencies... (0.00 / 0)
For having such foresight. Local government is the best government.  Counties should sue the state for their money.

Now the problem comes when the bureaucracy in Sactown wants to suck money from local municipalities.  not a fan of the prison workers or teachers unions as you know and i think the whole public service system would be far more efficient if handled at the county/city level as much as possible.

But Prop 13 is going nowhere.  The best option would be to redo the corp provisions, but the Repubs and Dems don't have the interest.

Corporate and Union interests over the average voter seems to be the inevitability...


[ Parent ]
Democracy now = mob rule (0.00 / 0)
A pleasant thought.

There are plenty enough checks and balances in the California system without 2/3.  The Governor has a line-item veto.  There are two chambers of the legislature.  There are these little things called elections.  That may not be enough for you, who demands that 1/3 of the representatives get an additional artificial veto, but for 47 other states it seems to work pretty well.  And I don't think they call it "mob rule."  Typical marginalization through false equivalence to discredit reform.  Contemptible.

Also, I wonder how regressive tax measures would be in a post-2/3 world, or would the entire tax structure be re-jiggered so that it's not closely tied to boom-and-bust economic cycles?  Alas, we'll never know because we wouldn't want to be an indelicate "mob."


[ Parent ]
When the entirity of the system is gamed... (0.00 / 0)
I don't see much in the way of checks and balances.

I mean really how much difference between Aronld/Davis has there been?  I'm sure you'll have quite a bit of ammo for me but I just don't see it.  They both mismanaged boom time economies and we're unprepared for the inevitable downturn.

Arnold got played by a RE bubble, Davis by a Tech bubble.  Now I am no zealot but when does it stop?  What total tax of a person's income are you willing to accept 50%, 60 or 80?

Do you think that ANY of the Dems would ever stop bleeding the public in favor of their interest groups if not for the necessary foolishness of the CA Repulicans?  


[ Parent ]
You're missing the point (0.00 / 0)
The reason that your hypotheticals don't work is because you aren't seeing how elimination of the 2/3's would eliminate any guess of who is in charge and who made the decisions. I for one believe in the power of the electorate. If Dems overreach, the voters will make us pay. But the current system makes no individual legislator accountable since they ALWAYS have an excuse.

[ Parent ]
I dot think I posed Hypotheicals... (0.00 / 0)
But I agree with your analysis of the legislature.  Gerrymandering has made them completely unaccountable.

[ Parent ]
My point (0.00 / 0)
was the hypothetical 50 or 60% tax scenario. I just don't think anything beyond reasonable is possible even with a 50% + 1 standard because the majority would have to be cognizant of over-reaching

[ Parent ]
Shot in the dark (0.00 / 0)
I'm just taking a wild guess here, having reviewed your comment history, a semi-educated guess, perhaps.

Might you have been a Ron Paul supporter at one point cjackson3, and one to whom Austrian school economics seems "sensible"?

What total tax of a person's income are you willing to accept 50%, 60 or 80?

What an odd question. A bit of a straw man, isn't it?

It really depends on the income (and should include assets) of the individual in question - and the level of services the state provides in return for any given tax rate. I have no idea how old you are but at one time many years ago, California public schools were rated number one in the nation, along with just about every other metric one can think of. That's why so many people came here and the population swelled as it did. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone likes the weather. What happened to change all that one might ask. Something put the state on a crash dive over the last forty years. Any guesses what that might have been?


[ Parent ]
Not a straw man... (0.00 / 0)
as much as a philosophical qustion about the direction of the CA Demoratic party (of which I have voted 4 more often than not)

Will some Democrats stand up for a MORE progressive tax system in CA as opposed to the regressive taxation we're seeing now.

And many years ago you did not have schools full of children from single parents, Mexicans and CAmericans (current and the children of past immigrants) These kids are at a disadvantage to begin with and it doesn't matter how much money you throw a the school system.

Give every teacher in CA a raise and a 15 student per class cap and they would still struggle for results with this generation.

So I ask again when is enough, enough?  Higher taxes and lower performance from schools (that sums up the last decade)which leads to another generation worse off than the last who will probably have children to early and the cycle repeats.


[ Parent ]
"Higher taxes" (0.00 / 0)
When exactly were taxes raised in California "over the last ten years".  Not under Schwartzenegger, to be sure.

This word "raised".  I do not think it means what you say it does.

Lower taxes (I included the vehicle license tax cut that Herr Governor made) and lower performance, would be more accurate.


[ Parent ]
and now the real reason for your opposition to taxes emerges (8.00 / 1)
you don't want your tax dollars going to nonwhite students. what are you doing wasting your time on a democratic site?

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat

[ Parent ]
BIG assumption throwing the raceat me card (0.00 / 0)
Why I'm here: I live in CA and voted Dem straight ticket last election (But I am registered independn)

I don't want tax money going toward ANY kids who aren't in school to learn!

I've seen the hoodlums my little brother goes to school with (he's half latino by the way) and unless the school system starts expelling more students and firing under performing teachers it will NEVER gt better.


[ Parent ]
Mob Rule v Tyranny of the Minority (0.00 / 0)
If it is "mob rule" versus "Tyranny of the Minority", I for one will take mobe rule.

[ Parent ]
that would be "mob rule" (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
It was good enough to strip marriage rights (8.00 / 1)
Somehow conservatives think a bare majority is good enough to write an amendment to restrict the rights of a minority to marry the one they love, but it's not good enough to pass a budget?

What a joke.  We don't need direct democracy, we simply need to have representative democracy where the people can decide policy for the state not a minority.

For example, why should the minority get to dictate meal break legislation?

I'm proud to work for Kamala Harris for AG.


[ Parent ]
Not so. Majority Interests, and Minority Rights (0.00 / 0)
Huge difference.

You're not really talking about protecting the rights of the minority here at all.  You are talking about thwarting the intention of the majority.

There are words for what you're asking for.  Two are "aristocracy" and "plutocracy".  Both are a major piece with what's gone wrong in Sacramento: the excess influence of the Trust Fund crowd, and the excess influence of corporate lobbyists.


[ Parent ]
Keeping a fair amount of our income isn't a right? (0.00 / 0)
I mean seriously the government is making up budget deficits by charging the poorest Californians hundreds of dollars in fees!

But the party of the working people can't touch the corporate provisions of Prop 13 with a 10 foot pole?!?


[ Parent ]
read the constitution (0.00 / 0)
there's nothing in there that says keeping any fraction of your income sacrosanct from taxation is a right.

it does mention providing for the general welfare as being part of the mission statements for the government, however.

surf putah, your friendly neighborhood central valley samizdat


[ Parent ]
You should read the US constitution. (0.00 / 0)
Article V ...nor be deprived of life, liberty,
or property, without due process of law

2/3 for tax increases is the law of the land. PERIOD.


[ Parent ]
And the court has held that taxes are permitted (0.00 / 0)
and don't know which amendments of the Constitution you approve of, but here's #16:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

I don't have a picture of either your back end or a hole in the ground either.  But would you know the difference anyway?

Glibertarians.  Gotta love 'em.


[ Parent ]
2 days of contrarian postings b4 I got a hgh school level insult.... (0.00 / 0)
...sigh

So your comparing we're comparing apples and oranges but state constitution requires 2/3.  

Your comeback proves my point the 16th applies to FED taxes and that's why we all pay.  Nothing in their about the states whatsoever.  Perhaps I opened up for that by quoting the FED constituton but I think that was in response to a general ? about individual rights.

Anway lest I be thought a troll (or be one) I won't engage in any silly name calling...


[ Parent ]
Uh huh' (0.00 / 0)
The reason for a state senate is the same as our nations, checks and balances.  Republics protect the minorities interests.

So how's that been working for you?  Pretty thin line between protecting the minority (and by that I assume you mean the Republican) interests and outright obstructioniusm that places party and ideology ahead of state and country, eh?

Having lost your ass in the last two national elections and the fact that only a third of the voters in CA are registered Republican I don't think you can safely "assume" that a majority of the "other 66%" buys what you're selling either.

What we have with this idiot 2/3 vote requirement  is the majority being held hostage by the minority... so who the hell protects the rights of the majority?  

 


[ Parent ]
What to we need for the long term? (0.00 / 0)
We are supposed to have a system where the majority rules and the minority is protected.  Instead we have a system where the minority does harm to the majority.

Redistricting will only help at the margins, if at all.

As your columnists have pointed out, right now no one is accountable. Not the governor, not the majority, nor the minority.  Voters are unable to reward or punish which feeds into the apathy and voicelessness your columnists also mention.

And that apathy keeps people from facing the facts. They use their disgust to rationalize their own negligence in not knowing the issues or the facts. My Republican friends believe in their hearts that the Mexicans are to blame, or that it is just a spending problem.

Until the average voter feels some real pain, they will not let go of their suspicion that if we lose the 2/3 rule then we will have runaway taxation.

When the Democrats cut spending and make compromises, it is perceived that they must be in the wrong because the "principled" Republicans are not compromising.

My concern is that in our concern to avoid catastrophe we will give away things that will hurt us in the long term.

And realistically, all of the tentative "deals" only kick the can 6-18 months down the road.  At that time we will compromise again.  Eventually we will become Alabama, West Virginia, or Missisippi.

We may have to let the state be driven over a cliff to wake up an ignorant public. At that time we may be able to convince them that passing a budget on a majority vote is the better way to go.


spineless jellyfish (8.00 / 1)
I agree with the first half but there is a sting when you step on the jellyfish.

'Stinging' is... (0.00 / 0)
...'partisan' and as such must me eschewed by the 'Party of Pantywaists'.

[ Parent ]
Uh... (0.00 / 0)
...we already rank behind 'Bama in terms of per capita school spending.

The Future all youse be worryin' 'bout is here. Right here, right now...welcome to my nightmare, the new Republican theme song...Alice just okayed it.

CA now junk bond status....check!

CA has worst schools in the nation...check!

CA infrastructure crumbling mess; do not forget we have over 2400 miles of levee built 100 years ago with mules and shovels. Hundreds of thousands, yes hundreds, of new homes will be under water if the system gives way....check!

CA legislators and the Ahnuld are lining their pockets and the pockets of their pals....check!

Thousands of CA workers will down tools in the coming weeks as the world's 7th largest economy grinds to a halt...check1

But don't worry we are still a democracy with full rights for the minority...

....even if they are a pack of rabid dogs.


Term limits kneecaps potential leaders (0.00 / 0)
This is old hat for everyone here, but I have to bring it up anyway...

In the mix of daunting structural problems let's not forget legislative term limits.  And among the many problems with having those term limits is the issue of how are leaders developed and encouraged?  And how do politicians with the ability and interest in providing real leadership gain real influence?

I'm not just talking back room stuff here.  Who in the legislature (on either side of the aisle, for that matter) really has the influence to move people here -- most likely by taking their case to the public?  Nobody.  And term limits keep it that way.

I think term limits are another example of something that only helps the Rethugs in the short term -- for similar reasons as the 2/3rds rules does.  A long term would be that both sides get to grow their political benches.  Maybe we are hurt marginally more with this...   Just thinking out loud here.


meh (0.00 / 0)
California is essentially parliamentary.  There is extremely little ideological shifting from year to year and I don't see changing term limits really affecting that.  In a package of reforms, maybe, but really Californians have the legislators they want.  They just have to let them do their job by removing structural impediments.

[ Parent ]
Say what? (0.00 / 0)
"but really Californians have the legislators they want."

In my Assembly district, roughly 19,000 voted for the winning candidate in the Democratic primary last June. That is equal to, what, 4% of the total population?  Possibly 10-15% of the registered voters?  Don't get me wrong, I personally am thrilled by our choice, but the structural impediments of which you speak ensured that the real selection was made by a very small minority.  Between safe districts and the split primary, the number of those who actually chose their Assembly member was quite small.


[ Parent ]
what? (0.00 / 0)
Term limits failing saved us from having even worse leadership still in charge. It is too bad that health care ended up worse off by the selfishness of Nunez, but at least he is gone.

[ Parent ]
My own radical solution... (0.00 / 0)
The Assembly as a directly elected single member chamber with 120 (or more) members.  The Senate as a statewide proportional representative body of 60 (or more) members.  Allocation of Senate members based on the party list system, totalling the votes Assembly candidates of all parties receive statewide.

In an analysis I did about 15 years ago, the Libertarians would almost always hold 1-2 seats, and in many elections the Greens would hold at least one seat as well. But aside from allowing for minor party representation, such an idea might improve voter turnout even in hopelessly safe districts.  If you know that running up the score in San Francisco or LA means you pick up an extra seat in the Senate, the elections matter everywhere.

Just a wacky thought.


Competition for the middle (0.00 / 0)
I suspect that if we had proportional rep, the parties running would also change.  A couple possibilities should give you pause:

1) Evangelicals could start a "Christian Conservative" party.
2) You might have a "High Broderist" party.

Power under proportional rep is about creating a majority coalition.  If you have a faction that could in theory form a coalition with either major party, you end up with a bidding war.  This is why various religious parties have so much power in Israel, by the way: they can frequently determine which major party controls parliament.  It's partly why the Israelis are still at war with the Palestinians -- Israeli governments are too unstable to take serious foreign policy risks.

I'm not sure I buy your argument about higher turnout either. I think that has more to do with the relative difficulty of voting (no day off as in many countries), and the general low level of political mobilization since TV became a major factor in US politics half a century ago.


[ Parent ]
There is that possibility, but.. (0.00 / 0)
Don't we have that problem already?  We offer up labor and environmental laws without a vote in return, end up cajoling our swing district Dems like Correa on board with goodies, and go trolling for Reeps ready to sell out to the highest bidder.  Perhaps if we end up with multiple parties, the "chamber Republicans" wouldn't be so frightened of the wingnuts launching a primary challenge, and we could close a deal without so much hogwash.  (I keep expecting the GOP to hold up a budget over an anti-abortion bill or something equally poisonous.)

As for the turnout, I admit that's a guess.  However, I encourage you to look at the district-by-district figures in some of our safe seats, particularly in an off year.  In 2006, turnout in the highest-voting district was FOUR TIMES that of the lowest voting district.  Currently, there is little incentive for the party to push the voters in a safe district. Perhaps if there a concrete payoff, they would make more of an effort.


[ Parent ]
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