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Report From Constitutional Townhall in Thousand Oaks

by: jjohnjj

Mon Aug 03, 2009 at 15:27:47 PM PDT


Just returned from the August 3rd Town Hall meeting on a State Constitutional Convention held at California Lutheran University in Thousand Oaks. There were about 200 people in attendance; a lot of retired upscale suburban folks with some elected officials, party activists, and Chamber of Commerce types mixed in.

The speaker's panel consisted of Timm  Herdt, Sacramento correspondent for the Ventura County Star, Jim Wundeman of the Bay Area Council, poli-sci professor Dr. Herb Gooch of CLU, and Superior Court Judge James Cloninger.

jjohnjj :: Report From Constitutional Townhall in Thousand Oaks
Gooch and  Herdt opened with a presentation of what's wrong with the State's government: A constitution that's been amended 212 times since 1878, ballot box spending, declining revenue from volatile sources (income tax on stock market wealth), rookie legislators, partisan gridlock, a 2/3 vote to pass a budget, etc. etc. ad nauseam.

Herdt was vaguely critical of 2/3 and term limits, but wouldn't go so far as to say that
repealing both (or just electing a democratic majority) would solve our problems immediately.

He described the government as a leaky roof that's been patched too many times and was simply unable to withstand the economic deluge that hit us last year. But he's skeptical about the chances of a convention being approved by the voters. He thinks we're now in "a moment" that will allow action, but will it last until November 2010?

Jim Wunderman of the Bay Area Council was the "advocate" speaker. He also described the dysfunctional nature of Sacramento went on at length about where the convention idea originated, how it's been percolating through civic groups, editorial boards, legislators... and gaining ground.  His main point were about the process. We need to put two props on the November 2010 ballot, one to amend the constitution to allow the voters to call for a convention by majority vote, and other the call for the convention. These need to be delivered to the State A.G. by this September 25th. Two million signatures must follow by April 16, 201O.

Both propostitions are sure to be challenged in court. But the recent Prop-8 decision showed the way to qualify the first initiative as an amendment, not a revision. The 2003 recall election demonstrated that we can put two issues - one dependent on the other's passing - on the same ballot.

Wunderman didn't have much to say about the mechanics of the convention itself. But he described  what things could be changed by a new constitution: the budget process (and taxation), elections, governance (oversight issues), and the relationship between state and local governments.

The language of the initiative would limit the scope of the convention to these subjects. But who would enforce this?  Wunderman said that things like public campaign funding, Prop-13,  and term limits would all be on the table at the convention, but how would we keep gay marriage, abortion, and flag-burning off?

Judge Cloninger warned that the courts would be drawn into the process, like it or not. He said a few things about "judicial activism" that revealed him as a pretty staunch conservative, but he wasn't opposed to the idea of a convention, he just doubted that it could be pulled off successfully.

Wunderman said a few more things about a "runaway convention". He said that conventions tend to be less partisan and more consensus-driven than elections or legislative sessions. There have been 232 ConCons in the US since the nation's founding - and there is legal precedent from other states that conventions can be limited to an agenda set by their enabling legislation.

The crowd seemed generally supportive of the Convention. But it wasn't a proper town hall because they didn't leave enough time for questions. Only six members of the audience got to pose them to the panel, but they were pretty thoughtful.

I heard a little grumbling at the coffee break about "using voter initiatives to cripple the initiative system"... something Wunderman did NOT propose to do.

Only one Wingnut was present and he got the last turn at the microphone. He went on a rant about "electors" and "citizens" and read from - honest to god - a hardbound edition of the California Constitution, in an attempt to prove that only native-born Californians had the right to participate in a convention.

The audience at first thought he was a "birther" and groaned loudly. He wasn't shouted down, but the response dimmed his enthusiasm and retreated to his seat. Then the judge stated without hesitation that U.S. citizens who are residents of California are citizens of the state.

I arrived as a skeptic, and left as a supporter. If the initiative calling for the convention includes a "preamble" which states that the purpose of a constitution is to define and limit the powers of government, and not those of citizens, I'll vote for it. Jim Wunderman answered my fears about "opening Pandora's box" by asking, "how could we possibly make California's government any worse?"

Another benefit:
Even a plausible threat of a convention might be enough to scare the minority in legislature (and their corporate sponsors) into making concessions to head it off.

http://www.venturacountystar.c...
http://www.newamerica.net/prog...

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I'm Not Afraid of a Convention (5.00 / 2)
At this point, I am willing to take my chances even on a "runaway" convention that has everything on the table.  After all, at worst we are left with the Federal minimum level of civil rights.  That may not be perfect, but it's better than nothing.  In honest debate, I believe our ideas win.

I'm still not convinced on the merits of this random selection idea.  I'd rather see 5-10 delegates elected from each Assembly District through a proportional representation system, so that voters' opinions shaped the makeup of the convention.

A few other thoughts:
-- All, and I mean ALL, convention proceedings should be televised or at least webcast.  No caucuses or private meetings allowed.

-- Convention delegates should be barred, for the duration of the convention, from accepting any campaign contributions, charitable donations, future job offers, or anything else we can think of in terms of inducement to vote one way or another.  

-- The final product should be subject to a straight up-or-down vote by the electorate.


asdf (0.00 / 0)
Agreed.

Here's my outline of the process I would like to see:

* A certain number of delegates per amount of population.

* Publicly funded "campaigns" to select delegates, however else it would work, with no influence by party.

* Everything is on the table

* Absolute transparency

* Up or down vote at the end


[ Parent ]
Mostly agreed (8.00 / 1)
Though I believe that unless social issues are off the table, a convention will never be approved by the voters.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave

[ Parent ]
asdf (0.00 / 0)
If we take something off, they'll want to take something off and/or vice versa until we're not left with enough room. I'd rather go for everything instead of nothing.

Until I have more trust for the delegate selection process, I'm happier to leave social stuff off the table, so I support the proposal...


[ Parent ]
Thanks! (0.00 / 0)
Thanks for the report on this.

I'm skeptical that the process described is immune from legal challenge. What worries me is the calling the convention by initiative only after the amendment is made. I know 2003 supposedly showed that could work, but I still think that's a soft spot.

Plus, there's still the whole revision/amendment issue. I know it doesn't seem like questions of equal protection should be less of a revision than calling a convention, but I can at least see the argument.

I thought the BAC's proposal kept Prop 13 off the table?

I'm more supportive of this idea after reading this, though I have huge--and I mean huge--concerns about the selection of delegates.

Take a look at what Blakeslee tried to do in AB4 (2008-9).


A couple of things (8.00 / 1)
It will not be immune from legal challenge, nothing really is, but BAC's legal team believes they have precedent backing them on the two initiatives at once thing.

The Prop 8 decision appears to have definitively eviscerated the "revision/amendment" issue. I would be surprised if the court does much in the future to claim that voter-approved initiatives are constitutional revisions.

The BAC is no longer going to keep Prop 13 "off the table". They got very, very strong pushback on that.

Blakeslee's AB4 is simply not a part of the discussion. However, there is a rich debate about what should be done about delegates. The Courage Campaign (where I work as Public Policy Director) wants at least 1/2 of the delegates to be publicly elected in a clean money election.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave


[ Parent ]
Legal Challenge (0.00 / 0)
I know. But there are legal challenges and there are legal challenges.

I have my worries about those two soft spots because the recall thing wasn't exactly parallel and the Prop 8 is hard for me to take seriously as a constitutional precedent because it is so mixed up in politics.

And this would be too, I know. But it might be that the court now really has an itch to lay down a marker on the revision issue instead of being forced to concede that there is no such distinction according to them.

Anyway, thanks for the info. I'm on board for this, and I'm advocating it to people I talk to. I can't help it with these questions. I'm a lawyer and it's my job to pin these things down.


[ Parent ]
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