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Another Tax brought to you by Rob Reiner

by: waterworld

Tue Aug 15, 2006 at 11:53:07 AM PDT


Another Tax brought to you by Rob Reiner

As a nation our failure to learn from our historical mistakes dooms us to repeat the same mistakes. This premise could not be more evident in the proposed tax hike from 37 cents to 87 cents by the state of California. The complete failure of the 18th Amendment to the US Constitution and its ultimate repeal by the 21st Amendment. Or the Boston Tea Party, should have taught us something.

Even as a smoker I would not argue that our population would be a healthier one if no one smoked. However we could say the very same thing about drinks containing caffeine, Fast Foods with high fat counts, and even alcohol for that matter.

The leading proponent of this initiative (prop 82)is none other than the liberal activist Rob Reiner

If as Rob Reiner and the proponents of this ballot initiative have as their root motive a significant decrease in the number of smokers in the state of California; then even I see it as a noble cause. The litmus test for the nobility of their cause would be to take 100% of the tax generated by the initiative and invest it in free and fully funded smoking cessation programs for smokers. As the number of smokers declined so would the generation of revenues.

However this is not the intent of the initiative at all. Even the name of his previously sponsered initiative the "California Children and Families First Act of 1998.", clearly defines the aim and intent of the new tax. The first three paragraphs indicate the motive for this tax:

(a) There is a compelling need in California to create and implement a comprehensive, collaborative, and integrated system of information and services to promote, support, and optimize early childhood development from the prenatal stage to five years of age.
(b) There is a further compelling need in California to ensure that early childhood development programs and services are universally and continuously available for children until the beginning of kindergarten. Proper parenting, nurturing, and health care during these early years will provide the means for California's children to enter school in good health, ready and able to learn, and emotionally well developed.
(c) It has been determined that a child's first three years are the most critical in brain development, yet these crucial years have inadvertently been neglected. Experiences that fill the child's first three years have a direct and substantial impact not only on brain development but on subsequent intellectual, social, emotional, and physical growth.

The Proposition 10 initiative Section 5 calls for additions to the Health and Safety Code.

chairman of the California Children and Families First Commission

SEC. 5. Division 108 (commencing with Section 130100) is added to the Health and Safety Code, to read: Section 130100 paragraph (b) reads:
  (b) The programs authorized by this act shall be administered by the California Children and Families First Commission and by county children and families first commissions. In administering this act, the state and county commissions shall use outcome-based accountability to determine future expenditures.
  This section places in the hands of the “California Children and Families First Commission” the administration of funds resulting from this tax. The chairman is none other than Rob Reiner.
Allocation of revenues generated by this tax provide no funding for smoking cessation programs for smokers.
The revenue generated by this tax if applied to California’s 2004 cigarette sales would be over a Billion Dollars. This revenue being allocated to a variety of children’s welfare programs. Thereby making the smokers of this state primarily responsible for the children’s welfare programs of the state. Let us assume for the moment the shrouded motive for this tax were truly a desire to significantly reduce the number of smokers in California and this goal succeeded. Where would the funds for these children’s welfare programs come from? Would the need for these programs simply evaporate with the smokers? Perhaps we could tax the patrons of Mc Donald’s. Or levy another tax on alcohol? Perhaps a tax on bald people? How about a tax on viewers of  Rob Reiner movies?
Smoking has clearly been defined as an addiction, if we want to tax smoker’s again use the funds on that addiction.
The same Rob Reiner who while he claims to want to ban smoking would be out of business were that objective accomplished. How interesting that to further his own agenda he uses the same tactics Hitler used on Jews, to create a common enemy to bind the masses in support of the real hidden agendas. The same Rob Reiner who believes cigarette smoking is bad but smoking marijuana is acceptable.
Before I pay a tax to support Rob Reiner’s liberal political agenda I will as our forefathers did during the Boston Tea Party dump my cigarettes in the bay!

waterworld :: Another Tax brought to you by Rob Reiner
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Somebody didn't look where he posted... (0.00 / 0)
I think Rob Reiner's "liberal agenda" is pretty popular here.

I think?

No sense in preaching to the converted (0.00 / 0)
Then it was the right place to post it!

[ Parent ]
Ah perhaps (0.00 / 0)
But attacking Rob Reiner isn't the way to argue against the Proposition if you want to argue here.

There are flaws with this proposition (such as its questionable interference with the tobacco settlement), but the goals of the spending are not my problem with it.

I support the increase of taxes.  I'd prefer to do it on income, particularly of the highest tax brackets.  I think we can at least go back to the tax brackets of the Ronald Reagan era in California.  The continuing structural deficit cannot be resolved through sticky tack and bonds for the long-term.

Now, getting the GOP to pass any tax increases to fund programs that they support, that's a bigger problem.  The GOP loves the borrowing.  Borrow, borrow, borrow.  No need to pay for what you buy now when you can make your grandchildren pay for it in 50 years.

I think?


[ Parent ]
I agree to a degree (0.00 / 0)
I can’t believe I agree with a liberal! If the designated programs are as noble as they are touted let us see if all tax payers would like to participate.

On the subject of increased taxes:

No offence intended but when will we learn the re-distribution of wealth does not work?
I for one have calculated at least 50% of my income goes to various taxes. When will it be enough? When will our government operate within its means just as we all have to do?

Attacking Rob Reiner?

Where is the attack? Is it identifying him as a liberal? Is it identifying is tactics to achieve his objective? Is it the premise he has a political agenda? Is he not the chief archatect of prop 82? I see nothing that is an attack merely a statement of facts. Perhaps given this is my first attempt to post on a blog you can point out the part that is an attack.


[ Parent ]
Ah, here's the root problem (0.00 / 0)
No offence intended but when will we learn the re-distribution of wealth does not work?
I for one have calculated at least 50% of my income goes to various taxes. When will it be enough? When will our government operate within its means just as we all have to do?

Waterworld is a classic anti-government tax hater.  The cigarette tax is just his whipping-tax-du-jour.


[ Parent ]
This bit is rather odious (4.00 / 1)
How interesting that to further his own agenda he uses the same tactics Hitler used on Jews, to create a common enemy to bind the masses in support of the real hidden agendas.

One might be more careful in one's use of Hitler analogies when it comes to attacking Jews.  Or maybe waterworld is taking a cue from Grover "Estate taxes are like the holocaust" Norquist.

Either way, a sad bit of hyperbole at the end of a piece which is at best poorly argued.


poorly argued piece (0.00 / 0)
The analogy is not intended to liken Rob Reiner to Hitler, however his use of the tactic to rally people against a minority is obvious. And as for your advise on the use of Hitler analogies, have you applied it to moveon.org as well?

As for my poorly argued piece, perhaps you have some wisdom on why only smokers should bare the burden of child welfare in this state?


[ Parent ]
[Sigh] (0.00 / 0)
1)  So all waterworld is saying is that Reiner's tactics are Hitleresque.  Because targeting taxes to a purely voluntary activity involving what are essentially luxury goods and which has a known public health cost is exactly like encouraging pogroms and eventually loading Jews into boxcars.  It's rare that I point out an occurence of Godwin's Law, but this sure seems like it to me.

2)  the Moveon thing is a classic wingnut slander.  A contributor to a Moveon ad contest submitted an ad (one among hundreds, IIRC) which compared Bush to Hitler.  Moveon never aired the ad, and took it down when it was brought to their attention.

3)  Really, only smokers bear the burden of child welfare?  Is waterworld arguing that tobacco taxes are the exclusive source of funds for all California programs benefiting children?  I'd like to see some proof of that in the state budget.  I'm not saying that waterworld is wrong, but that sure sounds like an exaggeration.

There are arguments against the kind of tax structure that waterworld is so worked up about.  Waterworld isn't really making any of them, at least not very well.


[ Parent ]
wingnuttiness (0.00 / 0)
What waterworld said was the tactic was one used by Hitler. I also beg to differ with jsw I am not an activity, activities do not pay taxes people do. The target here is a segment of our population. I don’t recall my analogy mentioning loading Jews into boxcars, you own that spin. If I understand jsw , voluntary activities especially those that might  be a luxury should be taxed? I might add that I am a smoker and I find nothing luxurious about it at all.

No not only smokers bear the burden of child welfare however if you read the text of the initiative and the published objectives of Rob Reiner, one of the principal objectives is to provide free day care for all children. Given that the state of California does not provide that now and that this tax would provide 2 billion dollars in revenue to finance such a program. Yes I think we are being ask to bare a burden that if truly necessary should be born by all. Or perhaps we could tax the purely voluntary activity of having kids we can not afford.

This forum certainly gives you jsw the opportunity to make a valid argument for or against prop 82 but instead you choose to make nasty remarks about people who disagree with your point of view. What’s new?

For the record moveon.org made the Ad available via streaming video from its web site and it was not just one ad it was two. The ads are still accessible via the net.


[ Parent ]
So many fallacies, so little time (8.00 / 1)
What waterworld said was the tactic was one used by Hitler.I also beg to differ with jsw I am not an activity, activities do not pay taxes people do. The target here is a segment of our population. I don’t recall my analogy mentioning loading Jews into boxcars, you own that spin.

If you can't see what you did, I think you're probably beyond help.  Taxing property is also targeting property owners.  User fees for parks, targeting people who use parks.  Gasoline taxes, targeting drivers.  Any tax other than a flat head tax targets someone in some way -- heck, even a flat head tax targets big families.  And so every tax is just like Hitler.  There were so many other ways that complaint might have been raised, and you chose HITLER.

If I understand jsw , voluntary activities especially those that might  be a luxury should be taxed? I might add that I am a smoker and I find nothing luxurious about it at all.

What I said was that I see nothing odious about taxing the activity in which you engage.  I'm having a hard time reconciling your anti-tax position with your lack of willpower.  You don't like smoking?  Quit.  You can't quit?  Well, learn to live within your means.  You want to make sure that your addiction is not too expensive for you.  And that makes Rob Reiner like Hitler?

This forum certainly gives you jsw the opportunity to make a valid argument for or against prop 82 but instead you choose to make nasty remarks about people who disagree with your point of view. What’s new?

Again, you compare Rob Reiner to Hitler, and you complain that you're not being treated nicely.  If you can't see the irony here, I don't know that I can help you.

For the record moveon.org made the Ad available via streaming video from its web site and it was not just one ad it was two. The ads are still accessible via the net.

So, two ads.  Out of 1500.  And Move On took them down and apologize for something they didn't even create.

http://moveonvoterfu...

The fact that those ads are still available "via the net" doesn't mean anything.  Lots of things are available "via the net" and you can't attribute them to whoever you like to make your point. 

Right now, your comparison of Rob Reiner to Hitler is still available right here from Calitics.  It hasn't been taken down.  Is Calitics responsible for that comparison?  Do we need to apologize for your comparison of Rob Reiner to Hitler?  Even if Calitics took down your post, it would probably still be available in Google's cache.  And if you chose to repost it, it would be available "via the net."  Is your point of view -- that Rob Reiner is acting like Hitler -- attributable to Calitics forever?


[ Parent ]
Ignoring the wingnuttiness... (0.00 / 0)
...I'd like it if we could address the substance of this argument, because I've worried about it myself.

While it's true that CA's size makes it less likely that we'll see the New York City phenomenon of smokers going to another state to by cigs, I still am somewhat concerned about creating overly strong incentives for black marketeering.  Another way people buy cigs in NYC is from vendors who are buying large amounts in other states, then selling them at a markup smaller than the NY tax.

I don't think the tax level contemplated by the proposition is high enough that this looks like a serious stimulant of criminal enterprise -- petty stuff, at worst (like in NYC). But I think that sort of argument is coherent, and is worth addressing.

More importantly, though, I'm allergic to arbitrary earmarking of revenue streams.  It creates some perverse political effects -- when there's really more revenue than the targeted program can absorb, you have to engage in budgetary contortions (like the "triple flip") to try to use the money productively; and if there's too little, people don't want to shore up the target project because "we're already paying for that with tax X!"

I can understand allocating gasoline taxes to road infrastructure and public transit, and I'm entirely onboard with using an oil extraction fee for investment in energy efficiency and new energy technologies.  But the arbitrariness of linking cigarette taxes to childhood programs does bother me.

RM 'Auros' Harman
Delegate, A.D. 21, CA Dem State Central Committee
Treasurer, CADem Business and Professional Caucus
Board Member, Peninsula Democratic Coalition and Peninsula Young Dems


See, that's how one argues against this structure (0.00 / 0)
The only way to fix that problem is to revamp the whole tax code, which in CA will require repealing Prop 13 and the 2/3 majority requirement in the legislature.

Until those two rational things are done, we constantly get the earmarking of revenue streams, and our budgeting is a trainwreck.

Believe me, I'm not a fan of this model -- I think it's pernicious at best, disastrous at worst.


[ Parent ]
Something we agree on (0.00 / 0)
Yes one solution is to completely revamp our entire tax system. But no matter what we do with the tax system we will be in the same predicament if we do not recognize we have spending limits.

[ Parent ]
as if Republicans ever recognize that (0.00 / 0)
But their solution is to have their grandchildren pay the cost. At least Democrats are honest enough to say if we want all these programs, we need to do it the right way, ie have the taxes to support it.

[ Parent ]
Thank goodness for a breath of civility (0.00 / 0)
Countless numbers of smokers will find this tax the incentive they need to quit. Thereby reducing the revenue generation.

It is not necessary to go to another state to avoid this tax although I can assure you the millions of smokers who visit Las Vegas will come back with cheep cigarettes. Indian reservations all over California will be able to sell cigarettes at very favorable profits and still be less than the corner market or 7-11. There are other resources such as military exchanges. Which will no doubt become a black market of their own.

As to the potential for a black market it is a given. At the proposed prices a legal cigarette will cost more than a single joint on the street. That activity is obviously a serious stimulant of criminal enterprise.

Again I would not be opposed to a tax as proposed if the money were used exclusively for fully funded smoking cessation programs for smokers.


[ Parent ]
Dude, you compared a Jew to Hitler (0.00 / 0)
and you want civility?

[ Parent ]
Yes on civility (0.00 / 0)
Yes I do want civility. I think you better read what I said again, I did not compare a Jew to Hitler, I said he used the same tactic. Assuming Hitler brushed his teeth, if I were to say “you brush your teeth, so did  Hitler “ do you think I am saying you are the same as Hitler?

  Your attitude would suggest I was an Anti-Semite, when in fact I support Israel in their desire to defend them selves, can you say the same? My piece was on unfair taxation and those who promote it. I will not respond to your asinine comments about Jews and boxcars.

So DUDE either show me your outrage for Corin Redgrave, Ted Rall, Aaron McGruder, Linda Ronstadt, Scott Ritter, Harvey Wasserman, Neil Clark, Dave Lindorff, Paul Street, Iver Bogen, and Wayne Madsen just to name a few of your like minded contemporaries who have compared my president with Hitler or start your own blog on its ok to compare conservatives to Hitler but not liberals. The issue was taxation.


[ Parent ]
Incentive to quit? (0.00 / 0)
My understanding is that there's some fairly strong statistical evidence that if you don't funnel money into providing, and advertising, affordable cessation programs, almost no level of taxation wlll induce a significant portion of smokers to quit.  Instead you just get a black market.  (But, this is not a major area of expertise for me, so you can take that with a grain of salt.)

But yeah, I think I'd be more comfortable with this proposition if its primary goal was to reduce the health-costs our state suffers in relation to smoking.  I'd even be OK with allocating some of the money towards other stuff...

Like JSW says, our entire system is broken, thanks to Prop 13 and our budgetary process, and this is the sort of workaround we get.  I'll probably end up voting for it, but I'm not very happy about it.

Of course, Prop 13 is a huge can of worms.  I completely understand the impetus behind it -- when property values rise at double digit percentage rates every year, if property taxes rise with them, then it's entirely believable that a homeowner might be priced out of a neighborhood he has lived in for twenty years, and in which he has contributed to the rising quality of life that has driven up property values!  Something had to give.  It's unfortunate that the "reform" was, itself, such a disaster.

One idea I've seen bandied about is to abolish property taxes entirely, thus escaping the bonds of Prop 13, and replace that revenue stream with a zoning-based land tax (a low per-sqft rate on residences, a credit for paying to maintain inspected public green space, and a higher rate for commercial and industrial space) plus a fairly steep real-estate capital-gains tax (to discourage speculation and capture the state's share of the increase in value of the state's land -- land increases in value because of the society around it, not because of anything inherent to the soil! -- which previously was reflected in property taxes).  Of course, this change would need to be phased in over 30 years (reducing property tax rates by one-thirtieth each year, and adding the land tax and cap-gains tax at the same rate) -- the life of a typical mortgage -- to avoid creating windfall profits and losses.  (Prop 13 did that -- it gave a huge benefit to older people who already owned homes, and disadvantaged younger people who wanted to buy later.  It continues to operate as a punishment to families that want to move, or that are first-time home-buyers.)

BTW, re: civility, your Hitler comment was out of line, and your reference to MoveOn was ignorant.  You really should apologize for both, and think about why you're drawing a heated response.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you merely heard about the MoveOn thing from the right-wing media, but they grossly distorted the facts.  A single MoveOn member -- note that it's an open group, anyone can sign up -- had uploaded a Bush/Hitler ad to an open-entry contest, it was consistently rated as poor by the other members, and as soon as MoveOn was made aware, they pulled it from the site.

RM 'Auros' Harman
Delegate, A.D. 21, CA Dem State Central Committee
Treasurer, CADem Business and Professional Caucus
Board Member, Peninsula Democratic Coalition and Peninsula Young Dems


[ Parent ]
I agree, these were my concerns with 86 (4.00 / 1)
I'm actually not the biggest fan of 86.  Like you, I don't particularly like this earmarking and government by direct democracy.  It's left us with a whole lot of money for "sexy projects" and not a whole lot for administrative functions, like, say, the state court system.

Also, one needn't even worry about the black market.  You can just go to an Indian reservation and buy them.  As a matter of fact, I think this prop has a whole system buried within the actual language that will fight tax evasion.

It really is a lame way to fund early education.  Let's just get rid of Prop 13 and be done with it.

I think?


[ Parent ]
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