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Amazon Wants to Ask You if You Want A Pony

by: Brian Leubitz

Mon Jul 11, 2011 at 16:51:08 PM PDT


In New York, Amazon.com is collecting taxes from sales there, but not submitting them to the state while they are suing to block the legislation that requires them to collect sales tax.  In California, there is a tried and true way that major corporations fix policy by throwing cash at it: the referendum process.

Amazon.com Inc. wants California voters to decide whether to overturn a new law that forces online retailers to collect sales taxes there.

A petition for a referendum was filed Friday with the state Attorney General's Office so that voters can decide on the requirement, which was included in a state budget signed into law in late June. (SacBee)

This really should come as no surprise to anybody, as it only costs them a few million bucks to get it on the ballot.  And the basic question is one that they will do their best to boil down to something along the lines of "Do you like free shipping? So do we? We also like not charging tax. Yay for no taxes!"

Beating back such a referendum will be a very tough fight on some uphill terrain.  That isn't to say that there won't be those who will try.  Some of the biggest backers of the Amazon legislation in the first place have some pretty big pockets, like, um, Walmart, Barnes & Noble, and Best Buy.  And it is true that the legislation benefits big box stores, but it also benefits the few remaining small retailers. And while the big box stores are (very, very) far (extremely far) from perfect, at least they do provide jobs to local communities.

On what grounds is it good policy to give a sales tax exemption to a company that ships jobs out of the state?  It is a happenstance of our jurisprudence that mail-order and online companies don't have to charge sales tax, I get that.  But from any way you look at it, it just doesn't make policy sense.

There are a number of ways to go about defeating this Amazon referendum, depending on how much money comes into opposing it. But by the time this hits the ballot in the primary next year, expect lots of ink, pixels, and TV bandwidth to be spilled (ads and coverage).  Depending on when the election is next year, it will be a very difficult time to fight back.  Yet, I imagine there will be a pretty good fight on this.

And, for the record, no, Amazon.com, I do not want a pony.

Brian Leubitz :: Amazon Wants to Ask You if You Want A Pony
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revenue down anyways (0.00 / 0)
Revenue has went down in states that have done what California did. And we are losing the income tax from the most productive affiliates.

Also another out of state merchant cduniverse fired all their California affiliates.

We either need Quill v. North Dakota repealed or a federal law to force Amazon or any out of state retailer to comply with use tax law.

How about our Attorney General sue Amazon so we can get a supreme court case.  


Huh? (0.00 / 0)
A Federal law will not help, nor will making a state law do any good, As the US Constitution is the supreme law of the land, any lesser law that conflicts with the Constitution gets struck down, any that don't conflict will stay in effect. Oh and Quill vs. North Dakota is a Court Case and can not be repealed, Court Cases have to overturned, but only if there is evidence that shows that the earlier case was wrong and not in agreement with the US Constitution, the legal document that is the basis for our Government and our rights and laws.

[ Parent ]
This is not good public relations (5.00 / 1)
I'm not sure the folks at Amazon have thought this through completely. I still don't buy Valero gas, I will not purchase anything from Amazon until they start paying taxes in California. I think their might be a lot of other people who feel the same way.

Corporate 'Democracy' (0.00 / 0)
It's interesting that corporations now openly sponsor ballot initiatives

PGE had one a few years ago, as did your mentioned Valero

I guess it started with the apartment owner sponsored Jarvis-Gann Prpo 13

Churches got into the act with Proposition 8

I regularly use Amazon for purchases
It really is a great service

But, I am now looking for an alternative to Amazon
I haven't found one yet
(and please don't suggest Wal-Mart)

Next up: (openly) Corporate endorsed candidates
The joys of 'Corporate Citizenship'

What other nation has granted 'Corporate Citizenship' ???


[ Parent ]
Alternative (0.00 / 0)
But, I am now looking for an alternative to Amazon
I haven't found one yet
I like Powells.  http://www.powells.com/.  It is a brick & mortar store in Portland, Oregon that has a web presence.

[ Parent ]
Thanks (0.00 / 0)
I'll try Powells

I just hope Amazon gives up its' losing battle


[ Parent ]
interestingly (0.00 / 0)
Barnes and Noble is another option.  They still maintain real stores so they will do the sales tax, offer discounts, and will help with shipping (sometimes).

[ Parent ]
Powell's does not collect tax for CA either! (0.00 / 0)
CaliforniaCondor, you cracked me up.  Your recommendation of Powell's in OR... they do not collect sales tax for CA and do not send any $ to our State.  They are just like Amazon I fear.

BTW- did you use your California Form 540 to pay sales tax on your Powell's purchases in 2010?  I suspect that you did.  :)


[ Parent ]
Like Amazon? (0.00 / 0)
CaliforniaCondor, you cracked me up.  Your recommendation of Powell's in OR... they do not collect sales tax for CA and do not send any $ to our State.  They are just like Amazon I fear.
I read frisco's complaint not as one about the collection of sales tax, but as one of a corporation sponsoring ballot propositions.  I was unaware of Powell's sponsoring any such propositions in California, but I may be wrong. But, to be "just like Amazon" that's a necessary condition, so could you please let us know what propositions they've sponsored?

BTW- did you use your California Form 540 to pay sales tax on your Powell's purchases in 2010?  I suspect that you did.  :)
No use tax -- no purchases that qualified.

[ Parent ]
Walmart (0.00 / 0)
I can't stand that place, endless walking, I like some of what they sell, but if I went there more I'd need an ecv to get around in(electronic conveyance vehicle, last I looked Walmart doesn't have those), as Walmart is almost too much for My leg, ankle and hip joints, nothing like breaking a leg at one time to wear things out sooner. I can tolerate the place only for a few items at a time, so I tend to avoid the place like the plague.

[ Parent ]
Exxon (0.00 / 0)
I still don't buy Valero gas
I haven't bought Exxon since March 24, 1989.  Valero is spawn of the Exxon/Mobil merger, so...

(Even if I weren't politically motivated, the fact that they're about 30 cents/gallon more expensive than their neighbors where I live would also convince me to move along elsewhere.)


[ Parent ]
I think you mean "collect" taxes... (0.00 / 0)
I will not purchase anything from Amazon until they start paying taxes in California.

Well surfk9, Amazon is not in California.  They do not pay taxes to California.  There is no reason for them to.  I think you mean that Amazon should collect taxes from customers in California and forward that $ to the State Tax Board, yes?


[ Parent ]
Valero (0.00 / 0)
Me neither, I'd rather go to Pilot or Flying J nearby, their truck stops and they sell gas for automobiles too.

[ Parent ]
Amazon would not "pay" sales tax, just act as conduit. (0.00 / 0)
Under the new law Amazon is now responsible for collecting (from buyers) and remitting (to the state) the sales/use tax that California buyers are already legally required to pay, but most of whom don't (look at Form 540, line 95  instructions where they tell you to pay any sales/use taxes on out-of-state purchases not already collected by the retailer.)  

[ Parent ]
It'll Never happen... n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Thanks for the correction (0.00 / 0)
Yes that is "collect" taxes the way a brick and mortar store would.  

State lines (0.00 / 0)
A sales/use tax across a state line/border/boundary is called an interstate tariff and is not a power granted to the states by the US Constitution and this was decided back in 1992 by the US Supreme Court, the US Constitution gives only Congress the power to levy tariffs, No one else, period. Congress could rectify this, But hasn't ever wanted to, So until then California is being greedy and Amazon is in the right and they are defined as a Citizen under the 14th amendment to the US Constitution, Which I think is spelled out under section 2.5: incorporation, We have very thoughtful Republicans to thank for this section, wonderful.

930 E.g., Fort Gratiot Sanitary Landfill, Inc. v. Michigan Natural Resources Dep't, 504 U.S. 353, 359 (1992); Quill Corp. v. North Dakota{look for 1992} ex rel. Heitkamp, 504 U.S. 298, 309 (1992); Wyoming v. Oklahoma, 502 U.S. 437, 455 (1992). Indeed, the Court, in Dennis v. Higgins, 498 U.S. 439, 447-450 (1991), broadened its construction of the clause, holding that it confers a "right" upon individuals and companies to engage in interstate trade. With respect to the exercise of the power, the Court has recognized Congress' greater expertise to act and noted its hesitancy to impose uniformity on state taxation. Moorman Mfg. Co. v. Bair, 437 U.S. 267, 280 (1978). Cf. Quill Corp., 504 U.S. at 318.

Corporate Personhood and Rights would need fixing in a new Amendment to the US Constitution, but that has to go through Congress and then to the states before being signed into law by the President of the United States or be voted upon by a number of the States calling for a Constitutional Convention and so far neither has happened yet.


[ Parent ]
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