That's NOT My Orange County

If only (0.00 / 0)

If only it were true...

Dave

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by: davegun2 @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 15:12:28 PM UTC

I made a reasoned argument... (0.00 / 0)

...for the people present at that rally being nothing but the fringe.  But since it also contained some criticism of the fringe left my post was deleted.  it contained no profanity or inflammatory remarks.

The .0000000001% of the population that equals the Calitics crew sure likes the dissent squashed quickly.  And no, presenting a counter point of view on a political BLOG does NOT equate to trolling LOL :-)  

Hi. I'm Charles.  I worked my way from homelessness to a business owner.  Be what you have it in you to be!

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by: cjackson3 @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 17:29:25 PM UTC

Don't be so quick... (0.00 / 0)

My rebuttal inexplicably was removed as well.

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by: nslander @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 17:31:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The reason for my quickness... (3.00 / 2)

Is that the mods of this site, ideologically driven as they should be (hosting a partisan website) engage in the exact same assumptions an logical fallacies that they accuse those on the right of.  If Republicans only represent 40% of CA your still talking about 15 million people.  And since in an economic sense Progressive politics represents a negative (talking the property of of others for redistribution) your saying that 50% plus 1 can take something away from the other %50 minus 1.

That's what direct democracy is.  That is why the founders loathed it.

Now you can make a socialist philosophical argument that property is and of itself theft.  But the fact remains the Constitution encoded property rights into American Law.

Now we come back to the rights of the majority to take from the minority.  Progressive taxation via direct democracy is tantamount to theft.  If you can't get 2/3rds of the populace to agree on it, maybe it's not so good an idea.

Give me a flat tax with NO DEDUCTIONS.  Everyone has skin in the game and is accountable.  I'm also for reforming Proposition 13.  Why?  because as a libertarian I despise government intervention in the market on behalf of special interest groups.

I also think the mortgage interest deduction should be killed for the same reason.  Why should renters be penalized?  it would also lower home values which is great for those entering the property market.  it would also put downward pressure on rents.  Stopping this foreclosure bailout mess would do the same.  Let these people lose there homes so they will be sold on the open market at a lower price and many prudent families will then buy and hopefully begin some wealth building for themselves.

I have not seen one article on this site about the ridiculous notion that people "losing" homes that they didn't own in the first place is in fact a good thing.  There is so little respect on these forums for the markets and the free will of productive individuals to steer society that it amazes!

Anyway it's a slow Friday and I should probably be doing the paperwork and things i often have trouble keeping up with while hustling up business.  I have no guaranteed retirement, no guaranteed pay for that matter.  But please cast me in with those "evil yacht party" folks you all love to hate.

/rant

Hi. I'm Charles.  I worked my way from homelessness to a business owner.  Be what you have it in you to be!

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by: cjackson3 @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 18:57:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Touched on an lot of things, but I will take a stab: (5.00 / 1)

"And since in an economic sense Progressive politics represents a negative" .  Incredibly broad statement.  If you are referring to the progressive tax code, you need to account for the role of the commons, of which the wealthy take a disproportionate share.  Our  courts are still implementing furlough days in a time in which the civil departments are swamped by lawsuits, 80% of which are filed by corporations.  Because the few derive their wealth from the economic activity of the many, they benefit significantly more from public investments to infrastructure, education, public safety, etc.  You also ignore former "iron rule" of economics (wages tracking productivity) became uncoupled around 1973. Since then, the wealthy have deregulated our sacrosanct markets to take an ever increasing share. From '80 to '06 the top 1% of earners tripled their after-tax share of total US income, while the bottom 90% have has its share drop over 20%.  Despite all this perverse "taking" of our progressive tax code, these poor victims are doing much better than everybody else as they continue to grab an ever larger piece of the pie. Only  those living in a libertarian cocoon seem inured to this reality.  Americans used to  pragmatic.  Long live John Dewey. Beyond that, historical analysis indicates high top marginal tax rates on the wealthy stabilize the economy, minimize the likelihood of  bubbles, crashes, and promote sustained growth.

As power is currently distributed, a flat tax imposed now would be disastrous for the overwhelming majority of Americans.

Mortgage interest deduction and Prop 13 are imperfect post-hoc remedies the structural economic problems identified above. However, I definitely agree our system unfairly penalizes renters.  

As to the "ridiculous notion that people "losing" homes that they didn't own in the first place is in fact a good thing": I agree to the extent that many borrowers who entered those sales contracts were reckless.  However, most did invest what little resource they had and they lost all equity.  Focusing blame on struggling, albeit willfully blind, citizens while excusing the actions of  those who intentionally created a system designed to artificially pump a bubble and then stole from the public of hundreds of billions of dollars on blind swaps and other  CDOs' is beyond logic.  This happened only but for a deregulated market, and we have the libertarian brand of kiss up/kick down economics to thank for it.

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by: nslander @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 20:25:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Don't have time to touch on all your points... (4.00 / 1)

... and while i disagree they are well argued and backed.

"Because the few derive their wealth from the economic activity of the many, they benefit significantly more from public investments to infrastructure, education, public safety"   -  This is a classic Chicken/Egg argument.  If not from the accumulation of wealth that provides for investment and creation of new products an services there is no economic activity beyond the most basic necessities.  I would hope we aren't going to go down the path of Agrarian/Anarcho-Communisim :-)  The smartest and productive, through their economic actions will ascend.   This is unavoidable.  But it is not a fixed pie.  That effort will inevitably and without fail benefit the greater whole.  Prosperity en mass.  Whether that upper class desires it or not.

On the free market... Fannie and Freddie and the FHA are not part of the free market.  They are big government corporatism at its WORST!  A truly "free" mortgage market could not have gambled that way.  With no government backing the Ponzi scheme would have feel apart before it began.  Though he will always be unfairly demonized by the left read some of Milton Friedman's academic works on money velocity and mechanics.  Bubbles of the like we saw are impossible without currency intervention.  Only the fed has that power.

On the flat tax...  this is far from correct.  The wealthy want to make more money like all of us.  Even foreign investments benefit the consumer through cheaper goods.  And if the lower classes end up paying more tax than now guess what other great benefit we all receive.  Housing costs as people co-habitat or downsize will lower.  you've seen this during the recession.  The only reason they haven't gone lower is that benevolent government intervention.  The invisible hand is cuffed so you and I have to pay more.  And the prime beneficiaries of a flat tax aren't the mega wealthy it's the 200,000 to 1 mil a year people who HAVE to create jobs by expanding biz to maintain their lifestyles.  The magic money machine of inflation only benefits those .00001% way up top.

Markets that function with the most minimal and necessary of regulations produce lower wages...  AS WELL as lower prices across the board.  Outside of the bottom 1-5% people living in poverty in the US still have it pretty good.  Many have an XBox and cable TV.  I'm sure you could possibly improve there lot through government intervention but that is a slippery slope as you appropriate the wealth of the upper class as well as the freedom and self determination of the intended recipient.

This is the evil Big Government real libertarians are most concerned with.  Unfortunately the academic libertarians use equivalency arguments to say that shutting down the FDA is as important as auditing the Federal Reserve.  And I'm not saying that in the "Jewish Banking Conspiracy" BS way that the extremetards do, those guys get on my nerves.  But out of the pragmatic obviousness that they serve the elite and NO ONE else.

Anyway good debating you.

Hi. I'm Charles.  I worked my way from homelessness to a business owner.  Be what you have it in you to be!

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by: cjackson3 @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 23:02:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"And since in an economic sense Progressive politics represents a negative (talking the property of of others for redistribution)" (0.00 / 0)

How about taking the fruits of the labor of the many and redistributing it to the pockets of the few in the managerial and ownership class?  I think that's called slavery.

Property is important but it isn't an absolute.  The ability of the few to amass unlimited wealth is less important then the ability of the many to live a decent life that includes work, leisure and family.

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by: Sofia @ Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 03:34:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

"How about taking the fruits of the labor of the many and redistributing it to the pockets of the few in the managerial and ownership class?' (0.00 / 0)

No one "takes" anything from the poor or working class.  You give labor and get something of value in return.  And since we luckily live in a free society you choose from who and for how much.

Even the poorest of the poor can take advantage of the free enterprise system.  You could have a poverty level family in Los Angeles save for a couple of years and afford to outright buy a home in Vegas, Detroit, our own Inland Empire or any depressed area.

The poor can move into the "ownership class" within a few years.  Free enterprise offers this opportunity.  They could then build their families wealth and contribute to the local community.

Instead you would devise 1001 welfare programs that in 40 years have accomplished squat accept creating an entire class of state dependents.

Hi. I'm Charles.  I worked my way from homelessness to a business owner.  Be what you have it in you to be!

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by: cjackson3 @ Wed Mar 09, 2011 at 19:26:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It wasn't deleted (0.00 / 0)

I gave it a 0 rating, and that had the effect of hiding it. You equated the bigoted anti-Muslim protest to the anti-Koch protest. There is nothing - at all - similar about them. The left does not say these kinds of hateful things about people. For you to claim that we do is an outright lie, and this website does have standards that we insist be kept.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave

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by: Robert Cruickshank @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 19:28:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thats absolute BS and you know it (0.00 / 0)

I'm in know way a fan of the Bush era politicos.

BUT... they were subject to some EXTREMELY vile hate speech from the left.  And while I'm Pro Choice myself there is evidence all over the web of Pro-lifers being called rapist, women hating, misogynist, etc.

Tell me you do not have the temerity to deny that.

That being said I'm a 1st amendment guy to the core and think everyone should be able to say whatever they want.

That of course includes you and your moderating your website however you see fit.  However have the honesty to admit that Muslims being called terrorists and the Koch's being called Nazis are morally equivalent slurs.

Hi. I'm Charles.  I worked my way from homelessness to a business owner.  Be what you have it in you to be!

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by: cjackson3 @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 21:09:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The left and terrible comments (2.00 / 1)

The left says many extreme things -

The debate that went on in Wisconsin brought out terrible statements.  See http://hotair.com/archives/201...

Almost every political movement has a nut case fringe: left and right.  The left definitely has their nut cases from folks who burn down buildings at the UW, to flying planes into IRS offices, or even terrorists like bad old Ted K.

Tons of conservatives are of a non-white ethnic origin.  Lots of folks don't like taxes -- in fact the biggest tea party guy around in my neighborhood came from India.

Now to the Muslim community.  I know many of very nice Muslim who are moderate and decent.  However, their fringe is a little less fringy than I would like.  It was the non-fringe Muslim Student Association (MSA) at Ohio State Univ that spread Osama declaration of War on the US.  It was the MSA at USC that hosted and funded the Taliban speakers prior to 9/11.  At my University the student associate was very violently oriented prior to 9/11 supporting radical Muslim movements.  I also have a hard time forgetting the Somali Muslim party in Seattle after 9/11 and parties that went on worldwide and watching the wild cheering and the Muslim tongue thing they do when they are happy.

It's also a bit hard to forget the dozens of sudden Jihad attacks since 9/11 by "lone wolves" from the DC Sniper, Ft. Hood, to the guy who drove over folks in SF, to the guy who killed Jewish women in Seattle, Times Square, just to name a few.  In fact, the first I think after an attack when the media doesn't mention the name of the person or where they come from "must be a Muslim" and that is usually right.

We need to not hate, but denying the obvious is not very smart.

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by: John McDonald @ Sat Mar 05, 2011 at 04:41:11 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hmm (4.00 / 1)

A Blue Orange, Now that would be a strange thing to see.

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by: SuperJoker @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 17:54:58 PM UTC

I reluctantly disagree (0.00 / 0)

I lived in OC for 10 years and worked there longer than that.  I have met too many people from too many precincts of the county to believe these folks are outliers. They are fringe only in the tone of their expression, not in substance.  The amount of blind hate casually directed in ordinary conversation towards Muslims, gays and Mexicans remains staggering.  

The percentage of people there who don't possess such dark hearts may be increasing, but that increase is imperceptible.  Dana Rohrabacher is ratified by 65% of his constituency every 2 years when his campaign consists entirely of scapegoating an entire race of people.   The numbers don't lie and other districts are even worse.

I've reconciled myself that I cannot expect this is to change anytime soon as this ignorance will always be with us, and specifically concentrated in Orange County.  Personally, I think its a better use of my political will to express it elsewhere.  But my goes heart and support extends to those who remain and are the change they seek.

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by: nslander @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 18:21:10 PM UTC

See, I disagree there (0.00 / 0)

You're right that those folks aren't outliers. But I totally disagree that we cannot expect it to change anytime soon. I think it is already changing. And the way to hasten the change is for the Orange County that embraces Muslims (and others) as members of the community to step up and vocally denounce this hate.

Too many people just assume that there's nothing we can do about the right. I vehemently disagree. Orange County is changing. Let's make that change succeed instead of throwing up our hands.

You can check out any time you like but you can never leave

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by: Robert Cruickshank @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 19:30:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm glad you disagree and I hope you're proven correct (0.00 / 0)

It is changing, just WAY too slowly for what should be  accepted of a civilized society.   I simply think OC needs to own its cultural shame before we see tipping point.

Just yesterday, a woman in my office told our entire staff we need to start shooting immigrants crossing the border.  As an isolated event, that not significant.  But morally offensive expressions as these should not be so common as to go un-remarked, yet it does.

Someday, maybe even Oklahoma might turn blue.  I just don't think I'll live long enough to see it.  Again, I pray I'm wrong.
   

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by: nslander @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 20:41:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The OC (0.00 / 0)

Thanks for posting this article
The actions described are Completely disgusting

It seems to be open season on Muslims in America
We alsays seem to need someone to hate
And maybe blame for our problems

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by: frisco @ Fri Mar 04, 2011 at 20:06:13 PM UTC

Another thing to make us OC'ers feel a little better about this... (0.00 / 0)

Yorba Linda is as far north, and close to the Inland Empire as you can get in the OC; half that crowd was probably from Riverside, San Bernardino and LA counties.  

The presence of Royce and Miller was inexcusable, and we are characterizing Deborah Pauly's remarks as hate speech and seeing where we can take it legally.  The loon was just elected vice-chair of the OC GOP, defeating the obsequious shill Jon Fleischman of the Flash Report.  It was nice to see Fleischman defeated, but it was not a step forward for the OC GOP.

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by: Huntington Beach Vern @ Sat Mar 05, 2011 at 19:32:41 PM UTC

It's not my Orange County either (0.00 / 0)

I bought my first house and my first restaurant in Fullerton. I belonged to the Chamber of Commerce. My son went to elementary school there. And I knew few people who would have felt comfortable with that kind of hate speech. Back then, that area really was a Republican stronghold. My in-laws, who lived in Mission Viejo were Republicans. My mother in-law ran for Congress on the GOP ticket. Yet they both worked to reunite the families of Vietnamese refugees who had settled there after the then recent fall of Saigon. They didn't yell at them to go home. That was my Orange County.

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by: cfinnie @ Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 00:39:31 AM UTC

LOL my rightwing OC parents took in Viets too... (0.00 / 0)

My Catholic John-Bircher parents took in some Viet refugees back in '75 too, Karen, that was a little different, easier for them.

For one thing those refugees were right-wing anti-Communist Catholics, and also had money - they quickly set up businesses and built up Little Saigon.

They were also making a political statement taking in these refugees, it was in large part a protest against our government giving up on the Vietnam War TOO QUICKLY!

(Apart from also being the charitable nice thing to do, of course.)

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by: Huntington Beach Vern @ Sun Mar 06, 2011 at 22:41:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

FYI (0.00 / 0)

"Hate Rally Organizer Karen Lugo Appointed To California Civil Rights Commission Advisory Committee"

http://maxblumenthal.com/2011/...

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by: coram nobis @ Mon Mar 07, 2011 at 23:39:42 PM UTC

Great Scot! (0.00 / 0)

Why is such a person that sounds like She's full of Hate, On a Civil Rights Commission?

I mean who's next on these ignorant peoples hate list?

the disabled?,
seniors?,
latinos?,
blacks?,
jews?,
gays?,
etc...

Did We learn nothing from WWII?

Some like My Mom hated people based on their ancestry, Cause the people She hated were of Japanese descent, Which was/is so wrong, We need to stop demonizing our fellow Humans.

Sure some Muslims are full of hate for non-Muslims, Most just want to live and are just like everyone else on the planet that We all share, As some are infected with Fanaticism here & there around the globe.

People around the globe are our fellow Human beings who have the same drives as everyone else without exception.

The very idea that some have is that everyone must be the same or their a threat, This idea is old, obsolete & so wrong.

One surgeon who saved My life, Liked the fact that I had a beard, He complimented Me on It and He was very polite, I just don't always feel like shaving as It's cheaper for Me to not do this. If He was/is a Muslim, I say I don't care, He's a good person and this world needs more people like Him.

It's bad enough that some people so wrongly want to defund parts of the Federal Government, Just cause they object to their tax money going to this or to that program. Like the EPA or the FDA who keep our air, water, food and drugs as safe as they can under the laws that they have to follow, without the FDA We could get phony patent type medicines again, That do nothing outside of line peoples pockets, Without the EPA, Without which Oil Refineries could pollute our air and water openly and without regard to the safety of people or of the lives of the animals and plants that share this world with US that make the difference between a living world and a dead world like Venus or the Moon. And this is just the tip of the iceberg, There's the FTC and a whole host of agencies that some in their zeal want to get rid of, To weaken the Federal Governments ability to fight corporate abuses of power(Domestic Enemies?)...

I guess Ignorance is bliss still.

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by: SuperJoker @ Tue Mar 08, 2011 at 21:07:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]