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Skelton Looks At the Bigger Picture, Or, Hey, That Representative Democracy Ain't Half Bad

by: Brian Leubitz

Thu Feb 03, 2011 at 17:44:10 PM PST


In a state ruled by direct democracy in many ways, George Skelton's column might be something close to seditious speech:

All that said, "check-ins" with the voters are what regular elections are about. The way our republican system of democracy was set up by the framers of both the U.S. and California constitutions, the people elect representatives to make decisions about spending and taxes.

You didn't see either the Clinton tax increases or the Bush tax cuts being put to votes of the American people. That occurred at the next elections, when the people voted whether to rehire their representatives.

Only in screwy California, where we have an out-of-control initiative system and a bloated Constitution that Sacramento often stumbles over when it does try to make decisions, do voters perpetually get handed such policy-making power. (LA Times)

Here's the situation we face. We have a state of 37 million voters.  At most 10 million of them turn out to vote on any regular basis, or less than a third.  Now care to guess how many of these people spent more than 5 minutes researching the issues they are going to vote on?

This is why we moved away from an Athenian-style direct democracy to a representative democracy. Our American founding fathers understood that not every voter had the capacity to take everything into context to make the decisions we expect of our legislators. You could argue that the information age has brought the knowledge necessary closer to the people, but in the end, uninformed voters are making decisions without all of the facts.

Even in a state of 1 million people the system would be impractical, here it's downright unworkable.  Skelton takes Brown to task for boxing himself into the corner, but really, it was something of an electoral practicality.  He may have won without it, but it sure made it a lot easier.  But, here we are, in a position where Brown is now forced to bring this to the voters instead of just doing his job and making the decisions for the state with the Legislature.

Of course, Skelton goes on to throughly lambaste the Republican caucus for being pretty much worthless and waste of taxpayer money.  (It's true!)  But the real point here, is that while this is where we are headed in the short term, it is ultimately unsustainable to continue to run of the world's largest economies by plebiscite.

Brian Leubitz :: Skelton Looks At the Bigger Picture, Or, Hey, That Representative Democracy Ain't Half Bad
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one thing skelton doesnt mention... (0.00 / 0)
...is that what people want is higher takes on the wealthiest & corporations. of course that isnt on the ballot this time-unlike in June, 2004 (mental health svcs tax) on millionaires. of course thats very simple-george skelton is a rie, republican in exile.  if the gop wasnt loaded with christianists, neocons/warmongers & corporatists or shall is say so-called "moderates" think arnold, the 2 maine senators etc.

have a tax on higher corporate profits taxes, higher income taxes (reagan & wilson did thix), estate taxes, severance taxes (oil) & capital stock taxes (net worth of corporations incorporates in CA).  REAL progressives would propose this.  Jerry Brown & alot of these so-called "progressives" wonts.  but then again these progressive are just the "RIEs" i spoke of earlier & others who r socially tolerant but dont & r not liberals and dont wish to be called such.

btw i bet someone will say u cant do the estate tax thing bc the fed govt.  VT & MN both decoupled their Estate Tax from the federal one.  btw MN has more millionaires per capita than any other state.  i guess they live there for the other low tax (say income, vehicle, corp & sales taxes and the nice weather ; ) lol.


Initiative is why California is great (0.00 / 0)
As a medical cannabis patient I am glad every day for California's initiative process. Warts and all it is by far better to have messy democracy in the long run than efficient but corrupt representation. We will have to fix some of the problems we've created, of course, but it is the people's sovereign right to do so. Our representatives do not always represent us, unless we are wealthy or well connected.

i agree initiative is a gr8 thing... (5.00 / 1)
...i grew up in PA where we only have a referendum given to us by our legislature-much more corrupt than this one btw.  this blog is a form of a "Check-in, " after all do u think george skelton gives a Goddamn about what i think.  

and btw i forgot to mention this before but CA has ~ 37 million RESIDENTS not voters.  i personally think election day should be a holiday, lets call it Democracy Day.  the one day a yr the people can directly hold their representatives accountable or decide who their reps r.  make voting/registration compulsory, give people the ability to vote "no" like Nevada, proportional voting, public financing of elections ,etc.


Yup. (0.00 / 0)
I grew up in PA as well, and am thankful to be in a state that has at least some semblance of democracy. That place has gone statewide totally Republican in the last election, by the way.

[ Parent ]
Thats what they call the "8 yr rule"... (0.00 / 0)
...in PA politics.  u had 8 yrs of democrats for 8 yrs running harrisburg.  now u will have the gop for 8 yrs.  its been that way ever since i can remember-nothing new, nothing is ever new in PA.

[ Parent ]
This one's straightforward (4.00 / 1)
Jerry Brown might not be governor in the first place if he hadn't repeated on television 5 million times "No new taxes without voter approval," which let him kayak the political rapids without hitting any of the usual boulders.

Another thing that was in the Constitution(s) (0.00 / 0)
...was majority vote in the legislature. If Skelton wants to go back to that, I'm good with it. But the all-tax-cuts-all-the-time crowd slipped that 2/3 provision into prop. 13. So now we don't even have a representative democracy, but minority rule by extortion. Can't have it both ways George. Either we have a representative system with majority rule, or we go back to Athens and let the people decide.  

Trouble is ... (5.00 / 1)
In most scenarios, we need 2/3 just to get on the ballot.  We need a real representative democracy...and I agree that would also include doing away with the supermajority requirements.

I think?

[ Parent ]
2/3 to raise taxes (0.00 / 0)
This has always galled me, that a "no" vote counts twice as much as a "yes" when it comes to raising taxes.  But it isn't just in Prop 13: the voters just approved another one of these 2/3 majority provisions 3 months ago, this one when the state wants to raise "fees."  Fees should be set by the amount needed to carry out the accompanying service, but people see it as a way to sneak in tax increases.  I think it often is, but the government has to do something to keep things functioning, as the voters continue to "starve the beast" and protect the wealthy.  This fantasy that they will be rich someday will have to fade before people can face what it costs to run the state they want to live in.

And remember, when the people decided in Athens, Socrates died.


[ Parent ]
"Center-righter" trying to be constructive here (3.00 / 1)
I'm still reading California Crackup... a great book so far IMO... but I think it didn't go deep enough into why 2/3rds is so popular and why people don't trust representatives. And this is despite Prof Muir in the 70s found how professional and effective the legislature was then.

California has attempted legislating by initiative, term limits and 2/3rds to cripple the legislature they don't trust. But why don't they trust them?  IMO I think its because of the "the other guy" animosity. Californians and Americans always think their legislator is great but the other ones are terrible and it shows in the 90%+ incumbency rate in Sacramento and DC. So I think the problem is having legislators chosen in geographically drawn districts. Now they draw their own to ensure like minded votes but demographic trends have shown that people are now huddling with the like minded.

So I throw out these two ideas:

1) Change the initiative process to a veto.  This is inline with the original intent where progressives (of HJ's era) wanted to have the people empowered to check corrupt govt dominated back then by the Railroad. Veto corrupt legislation I think meets that and is reasonable.

2) Far more radical state-wide party voting. Now I think this could actually get rid of the whole redistricting concept (which will fall apart eventually IMO).  Lets have people just vote for whatever party should run the assembly. You get your ballot and pick Democrat or GOP or green and percentage of statewide votes determines the nimber of seats they get. Majority vote gets to do budget and taxes for a two-year budget. So now a legislature that is hovering around 26% approval would actually have to get 51% approval.  People will actually feel empowered in the legislation thats goin on their instead of feeling like some other legislator they didn't vote for is pulling the strings.

There is stuff to flesh out and I have other details but I do know it'll be hard to sell the ideas. Probably just as hard to convince voters to end term limits and the 2/3rds majority. Maybe instead of asking for tweaks to the system a whole new system is a better approach?

I'm curious to see what those on the left think of those ideas. Thank you for your time.


[ Parent ]
i've been calling for #2 for some time (0.00 / 0)
for the currently useless state senate, or as 1/2 to 1/3 of a unicameral legislature (german-style). it would put a big check on any imagined effects of gerrymandering, would allow parties to include members of their coalition that can't get elected (SF republicans, for example, or redding democrats) but whose voices still ought to be heard, and would allow minor parties to have their say as well.

[ Parent ]
Good point (5.00 / 1)
I'm coming to think that on fiscal issues Skelton is right. Moral issues, like Prop 8 or abortion, the people are perfectly qualified to decide, perhaps more than legislators because elites are biased. But fiscal issues are another matter.  

Wow. (0.00 / 0)
The "people" are qualified to decide if certain minorities are supposed to have the same legal rights as everyone else, because "elites" are biased [in favor of equal protection under the law or allowing women to choose their own reproductive rights]?

And using Prop 8, where the anti-equality campaign was based almost entirely on blast-advertising lies and pulpit-thumping by the religious right, as an example of the kind of thing that "the people" are qualified to decide, really shows us what you think "bias" means.

Contemptible.


[ Parent ]
37 million voters? (0.00 / 0)
Here is a question.  In this post you say that we have a state of   37 million voters.
But, California only has 37 million residents.
So, a large portion (1/4) are under 18.
A portion are not citizens.
So, we can't have 37 million voters.
You need to recalculate.  

i think he meant to say... (0.00 / 0)
...37 million residents/Californians-not voters.  simple mistake, no big deal.

[ Parent ]
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